Exploring how Dune: War for Arrakis uses input randomness to assign dice and limit player actions, creating a unique wargame mechanism... and how this might apply to TTRPGs.
Ah yes, I think that works well. In fact, I've messed around with that sort of design in my notebooks... but still struggled with how to handle the decreasing decision space and the "last dice" stuff.
I haven't played it, but just read the Wikipedia page (which is quite extensive) and it certainly sounds like input randomness to me! The randomness (dice rolls) come before the player choice. Good example! Thank you!
It's a game with it's own chequered backstory! I've never played it but, the mechanics for escalating social interactions and combat have always interested me.
I had heard of the game (since it's by Vincent Baker, who also did Otherkind dice later), but didn't know the mechanics – super interesting to learn about and see the similarities (and differences), one can really imagine the throughline :)
Speaking of worms, one recent TTRPG that uses input randomness is His Majesty The Worm, where everyone draws a small hand of tarot cards at the start of each round of combat.
Having played a handful of combats, I've had the feel-bad, "whelp, I'm going to suck this round," and ... yeah, feels bad. Figuring out how to make something good out of a bad hand is an interesting challenge, but it feels like a meta-game intrusion into normal game-play.
I haven’t looked into His Majesty the Worm yet, so thank you for pointing that out! Sounds like a perfect example.
And yeah, I’m not sure how you avoid the decreasing decision space until you have almost nothing left. I guess it’s the timing on refreshing your hand, if that’s a thing? But I’m with you. It’s one of the reasons Gloomhaven combat just didn’t click with me. I hated the late-combat restrictions.
But I love that designers are exploring and trying new things!
When I was younger I created a simple RPG that I played with my brothers on a family road trip that used UNO cards. Everyone had one of each number in their hand at the start of the game, and then as they encountered challenges (monsters, traps, etc.) those would have a target number. To defeat the challenge they would have to play a card with an equal or higher number. Playing your high number cards early meant that you had only low number cards left, That was long enough ago that I don't remember how the cards got replenished (there was some mechanism for it, but it didn't happen a lot) or how I generated the difficulty numbers (I probably wasn't totally fair about it). We ultimately decided it was unsatisfying. Or we got distracted by finally arriving at Disneyland, one of the two.
The game you are using to describe this concept sounds really interesting on its own grounds, and is one that I think I’ll look out for.
I voted “great idea, I love it” in your quiz, because it’s an idea that I’m using in a game that I’m working on at the moment! “Escape to Utopia” is a post-apocalyptic story game, and in each act a player is dealt a hand of cards which they are able to use in the scenes in that act. But you don’t know whether it is best to save good cards for later, or use a lesser card that you can bolster with an appropriate resource… It’s proving fun in playtesting at the moment.
There is a refresh each Act, so 3 new cards in Act 2, and again in Act 3. I experimented with games where you started off with 9 cards, but it became too easy to optimise for the game (and since the theme is post-apocalyptic escape, the game engine wants to be a bit gnarly, and cause people to engage with the ‘dead man walking’ mechanics).
Of course, there is a tonne of variability when someone just has 3 cards. In any particular Act one player might have a great hand and carry everyone, and someone else might be a little pathetic - but that can all change for the next act. Nobody has ever had rubbish cards in all hands (although that is a theoretical possibility)
Really interesting post! Your thoughts on TTRPGs make me think of 1000 Year Old Vampire (TYOV). While it's not exactly the same, I think input randomness and depleting resources could have a similar impact on narrative.
In TYOV, you have a finite number of skills, which can generally only be used once. (You can gain more, but doing so is random.) Some of the player agency comes from choosing which skill or resource to use to resolve a situation presented in a journal prompt. You might be telling a story about a vampire trying to hold onto their humanity and find that a potentially benign situation must be resolved using the skill "Bloodthirsty," which leads to interesting narrative developments.
In a similar way, I think input randomness could strip some agency from players in a manner that could be interesting from a character and narrative perspective. I think this would fit best in games or stories in which the player and/or PC don't have full control over their actions.
What about using input randomness for a game about fighting the power from the inside? You have to follow certain orders, but when and how you do is up to you. Follow the letter of the law, but fight the spirit.
I should revisit TYOV at some point. I purchased it before I even know what a "solo journaling game" was, going purely on its popularity. I was quite confused as to how to even play it!!! :)
If I were to go back to it now, I think I'd really enjoy it.
I just played it last week, and really enjoyed it :D hadn't thought of the connection, but that's such a good point :)! Absolutely agree on how it can be so thematically appropriate. Great idea too with the "fighting the power from the inside" themed game :)
Fascinating! Happy that you mentioned Otherkind Dice, too :) it's super interesting how both similar and different this is from that, since with this kind of system you roll just once at the start of the game/day/session/appropriate amount of time, that you spend one by one, rather than at every roll having to assign dice to multiple things, all at once! Omen does sound super interesting too, and super thematically appropriate with having a dwindling dice pool, since the world is literally doomed :) loved learning this, thank you!
In Mike Pondsmith's "Castle Falkenstein" (as I remember it -- I haven't played it in well over 20 years), players and GM were dealt a hand of card. If they wanted to, players could to "boost" their attributes with those cards to try to pass difficulty thresholds, and the GM could similarly boost said difficulty thresholds against players.
The more recent french TTRPG "Tribute", by Rafiot Fringant, uses a blackjack inspired system. In turn, GM and player draw a card if they so wish. The stronger the card, the more leeway they have to bend the course of the story. Getting to 21 is a kind of critical "roll". Going over 21 is similarly a kind of fumble. So it is not only a kind of input randomness, but also a push-your-luck system.
These 2 examples make me wonder if cards are more amenable than dice for input randomness in RPG.
I have seen some pre-rolling for divination focused characters, which I think is really interesting.
Ah yes, I think that works well. In fact, I've messed around with that sort of design in my notebooks... but still struggled with how to handle the decreasing decision space and the "last dice" stuff.
For a divination PC, it could work to assign results not just to the PCs actions but also the NPCs actions? This gives low values utility.
Or like Citizen Sleeper where a B plot uses low value die (couldn't help myself).
Would Dogs in the Vineyard's main dice mechanic be an example of input randomness?
I haven't played it, but just read the Wikipedia page (which is quite extensive) and it certainly sounds like input randomness to me! The randomness (dice rolls) come before the player choice. Good example! Thank you!
It's a game with it's own chequered backstory! I've never played it but, the mechanics for escalating social interactions and combat have always interested me.
I had heard of the game (since it's by Vincent Baker, who also did Otherkind dice later), but didn't know the mechanics – super interesting to learn about and see the similarities (and differences), one can really imagine the throughline :)
Speaking of worms, one recent TTRPG that uses input randomness is His Majesty The Worm, where everyone draws a small hand of tarot cards at the start of each round of combat.
Having played a handful of combats, I've had the feel-bad, "whelp, I'm going to suck this round," and ... yeah, feels bad. Figuring out how to make something good out of a bad hand is an interesting challenge, but it feels like a meta-game intrusion into normal game-play.
I haven’t looked into His Majesty the Worm yet, so thank you for pointing that out! Sounds like a perfect example.
And yeah, I’m not sure how you avoid the decreasing decision space until you have almost nothing left. I guess it’s the timing on refreshing your hand, if that’s a thing? But I’m with you. It’s one of the reasons Gloomhaven combat just didn’t click with me. I hated the late-combat restrictions.
But I love that designers are exploring and trying new things!
Thanks for your comment!
When I was younger I created a simple RPG that I played with my brothers on a family road trip that used UNO cards. Everyone had one of each number in their hand at the start of the game, and then as they encountered challenges (monsters, traps, etc.) those would have a target number. To defeat the challenge they would have to play a card with an equal or higher number. Playing your high number cards early meant that you had only low number cards left, That was long enough ago that I don't remember how the cards got replenished (there was some mechanism for it, but it didn't happen a lot) or how I generated the difficulty numbers (I probably wasn't totally fair about it). We ultimately decided it was unsatisfying. Or we got distracted by finally arriving at Disneyland, one of the two.
I love the sense of play that allowed you to try an idea like that! That's very cool and a great design exercise. Thank you for sharing this!
Firstly - super clever title. Well done!
The game you are using to describe this concept sounds really interesting on its own grounds, and is one that I think I’ll look out for.
I voted “great idea, I love it” in your quiz, because it’s an idea that I’m using in a game that I’m working on at the moment! “Escape to Utopia” is a post-apocalyptic story game, and in each act a player is dealt a hand of cards which they are able to use in the scenes in that act. But you don’t know whether it is best to save good cards for later, or use a lesser card that you can bolster with an appropriate resource… It’s proving fun in playtesting at the moment.
Glad someone appreciated the title. Thank you. :)
How do you think you'll handle when players get down to just 1 or 2 cards left? Is there a way to refresh?
There is a refresh each Act, so 3 new cards in Act 2, and again in Act 3. I experimented with games where you started off with 9 cards, but it became too easy to optimise for the game (and since the theme is post-apocalyptic escape, the game engine wants to be a bit gnarly, and cause people to engage with the ‘dead man walking’ mechanics).
Of course, there is a tonne of variability when someone just has 3 cards. In any particular Act one player might have a great hand and carry everyone, and someone else might be a little pathetic - but that can all change for the next act. Nobody has ever had rubbish cards in all hands (although that is a theoretical possibility)
Really interesting post! Your thoughts on TTRPGs make me think of 1000 Year Old Vampire (TYOV). While it's not exactly the same, I think input randomness and depleting resources could have a similar impact on narrative.
In TYOV, you have a finite number of skills, which can generally only be used once. (You can gain more, but doing so is random.) Some of the player agency comes from choosing which skill or resource to use to resolve a situation presented in a journal prompt. You might be telling a story about a vampire trying to hold onto their humanity and find that a potentially benign situation must be resolved using the skill "Bloodthirsty," which leads to interesting narrative developments.
In a similar way, I think input randomness could strip some agency from players in a manner that could be interesting from a character and narrative perspective. I think this would fit best in games or stories in which the player and/or PC don't have full control over their actions.
What about using input randomness for a game about fighting the power from the inside? You have to follow certain orders, but when and how you do is up to you. Follow the letter of the law, but fight the spirit.
I should revisit TYOV at some point. I purchased it before I even know what a "solo journaling game" was, going purely on its popularity. I was quite confused as to how to even play it!!! :)
If I were to go back to it now, I think I'd really enjoy it.
I just played it last week, and really enjoyed it :D hadn't thought of the connection, but that's such a good point :)! Absolutely agree on how it can be so thematically appropriate. Great idea too with the "fighting the power from the inside" themed game :)
Fascinating! Happy that you mentioned Otherkind Dice, too :) it's super interesting how both similar and different this is from that, since with this kind of system you roll just once at the start of the game/day/session/appropriate amount of time, that you spend one by one, rather than at every roll having to assign dice to multiple things, all at once! Omen does sound super interesting too, and super thematically appropriate with having a dwindling dice pool, since the world is literally doomed :) loved learning this, thank you!
In Mike Pondsmith's "Castle Falkenstein" (as I remember it -- I haven't played it in well over 20 years), players and GM were dealt a hand of card. If they wanted to, players could to "boost" their attributes with those cards to try to pass difficulty thresholds, and the GM could similarly boost said difficulty thresholds against players.
The more recent french TTRPG "Tribute", by Rafiot Fringant, uses a blackjack inspired system. In turn, GM and player draw a card if they so wish. The stronger the card, the more leeway they have to bend the course of the story. Getting to 21 is a kind of critical "roll". Going over 21 is similarly a kind of fumble. So it is not only a kind of input randomness, but also a push-your-luck system.
These 2 examples make me wonder if cards are more amenable than dice for input randomness in RPG.