Turtling is spelled correctly above, although I really feel like it should be spelled differently. Maybe an e in there somewhere? Some way to make it turtle-ing vs. turt-ling.
It uses kingmaking as an example of a cursed problem (6:18)), and the thesis is that cursed problem (such as kingmaking) cannot be fixed, they can only be worked around by fundamentally changing the game. Fundamentally you cannot have a multiplayer game where players care about mastery of the game itself (not the politics) and also care about winning, you have to change what the game promises the players. But I can't do it justice, it's an excellent talk.
I recently played a three-player game of Reiner Knizia’s Samurai, and it’s impressive how many boxes it checks to avoid the three-player issues mentioned above. Another reason to appreciate his mastery!
Dr. Knizia is amazing, and his designs are always elegant. Even though his games usually don't make it into my Top 10, they are always a master class in game design. I'll see if I can find a way to get a play for Samurai! Thanks for the tip!
I am a story teller. These are problems in board gaming and I have run into it. I tend to be more cooperative and dislike serious conflict that has no purpose. BUT, in the TTRPG worlds, these are considered to be world building fun. Star Trek is all about the turtling, romulans and the AI named control are significant examples.
Turtling is spelled correctly above, although I really feel like it should be spelled differently. Maybe an e in there somewhere? Some way to make it turtle-ing vs. turt-ling.
Anyway, more turtling in gameplay here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtling_(gameplay)
This GDC talk "Cursed Problems in Game Design" has helped me a lot in thinking about kingmaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ
It uses kingmaking as an example of a cursed problem (6:18)), and the thesis is that cursed problem (such as kingmaking) cannot be fixed, they can only be worked around by fundamentally changing the game. Fundamentally you cannot have a multiplayer game where players care about mastery of the game itself (not the politics) and also care about winning, you have to change what the game promises the players. But I can't do it justice, it's an excellent talk.
Ooooh, I'm always looking for another good GDC talk! I'll check it out. Thank you for sharing the link!
It's one of the best GDC talks I've seen. :)
Agreed!
Just watched it, and agree! Fascinating talk and very much related to this discussion of the three-player problem and kingmaking.
I recently played a three-player game of Reiner Knizia’s Samurai, and it’s impressive how many boxes it checks to avoid the three-player issues mentioned above. Another reason to appreciate his mastery!
Dr. Knizia is amazing, and his designs are always elegant. Even though his games usually don't make it into my Top 10, they are always a master class in game design. I'll see if I can find a way to get a play for Samurai! Thanks for the tip!
I am a story teller. These are problems in board gaming and I have run into it. I tend to be more cooperative and dislike serious conflict that has no purpose. BUT, in the TTRPG worlds, these are considered to be world building fun. Star Trek is all about the turtling, romulans and the AI named control are significant examples.
Yes! I think you'll enjoy Part 2 tomorrow. It talks about exactly this.