Using Reiner Knizia’s book of dice and card games for inspiration when designing other kinds of games. Exploring how a card game can be adapted and expanded.
My attempt for creating a solo mode for such a game that is not simply card counting was to try to split up actions into defense, midfield and attack, with a pushing your luck mechanic based on the number of actions and opponent attacks you face.
Great little mechanism! I could see a version of this being used as an entire TTRPG combat system. PCs have a small number of cards granted by their weapons/gear (maybe a 2, 4, and 9). Enemies come with a fixed set of cards. A small enemy (skeleton) might just have a 7 and a 3. Each round, each combatant can play a card against one target (the one they are attacking). In a 1-on-1, the higher card wins. In a 2-on-1, the higher card wins from the matched attacks, but the "unguarded" attacker gets a free hit. You have to use all your cards before you get any back, so that skeleton can make one hard hit and then a weak hit. Higher strength enemies get a stronger hand and can play more cards per round. Players learn what cards are held by which enemies, theming in learning how an enemy fights. I dunno...might be something there.
As a kid I tried to create an RPG that was basically this concept, using UNO cards. I don't remember all the details, but the different colors related to different stats, and you had a hand of cards that you played to overcome opponents or to perform risky actions. As you used up your cards your available options diminished until you had to rest to redraw a new hand of cards. If I remember right, the players knew what the target number was to achieve a success.
Another addition is that the players could choose which cards they had at the start of the scene/day/etc showing them to choose a couple of big cards and a couple of smaller ones or a more even spread. It would be nice to link then thematically to the character though. So like you said maybe the equipment could influence it somehow as well.
Defence could be tied into it with certain numbers (e.g. even numbers doing half damage when wearing armour x)
Great article, very interesting and full of ideas. I often have the problem of making things too complex, when simple mechanics can create the right tension and fun. The idea behind Goal is really interesting.
Thanks for the article. I wasn't aware of these books. Have any of the games that you found in this book compelled you to want to play them either solo or with someone else?
Your comments around analyzing these small games, and altering them, or inverting them reminded me of an exercise some friends and I used to try:
We would use a standard sticky note: So about 3 in x 3 in in size. Then we would challenge ourselves to design an entire game set of rules on the sticky note. We allowed ourselves to use coins as conponents. Obviously it didn't need to be a sticky note, but the size limitation and the fun colors helped challenge our brains to come up with fun concepts.
The games I've read through so far feel more like "example" or "instructive" games to me rather than ones I'd be anxious to get to the table. There's a good discussion included with each one that usually teaches me something or at least gets me thinking. But I wouldn't consider this a book of "great games" to play. :)
super interesting! now i'm thinking of some kind of football (in the sense of soccer) TTRPG, where this could be how you resolve matches, and in between you follow the players during training and their general life... maybe it's that all players are in control of one team, and during scenes each can pick one footballer to play for that scene (to avoid using 'player' for both categories), so it's like a shared pool of characters... and each is represented by a card, but then they can get upgrades through training, and there could even be things like new recruitments, or trades between teams... or each player controls one team each! many possibilities ^^
of simple card or dice mechanics used in games – while i have yet to play them, i know Defy the Gods has a Yahtzee-like system of spellcasting for the Sorcerer playbook, and one of the classes in You Will Die In This Place has something similar (and another class basically plays poker)... i really do like the Yahtzee-like things, where you try to get different combinations of dice to make different moves ^^ for spells it also feels quite appropriate, the mixing and matching!
you try to get rid of all your cards in your hand, each turn you play one of either the same suit or value, if you have multiple of one value you can play them at once; and then the 8 changes suit, aces force all opponents to draw one card... if you can't play a card on your turn, you draw a card, which you can do up to three times during your turn until it passes to the next player.
i guess what would be most interesting from that would be the idea of a few cards having some kind of special power like the eight and the ace... kind-of like the ace does in this i suppose! although maybe even the full game could be interesting for something like a wizard duel ^^ or, since the goal is to use up all the resources, some kind of hyper-capitalist 'parody' game? maybe something like "planet-crashers", a competition to see who can use up all the resources of their planet first? [the characters could either be humans who have colonized other planets, or some other intergalactic lifeform... maybe flavoured either as super-rich or imperial...] (maybe too real though ^^")
and something from the article that i didn't quite understand:
"They could, of course, play face cards to handle your ace, but they only have a few of those." – i might be reading this wrong, but wasn't it that aces beat face cards?
anyhow, excellent article as always :D always look very much forward to reading these :)
That’s my struggle with a Xenobiology game I’m working on - every alien has a solo minigame, so I’m finding as many quick mechanics I can out there while twisting it for theme and complexity.
The soccer game but solo does feel like your either card counting, or even more reductively rolling 2 dice and seeing which result is higher.
I could imagine it repictured as pushing up against a larger force like weather, and strategically moving energy or moves around in a complex terrain. Various random draws can affect what collapses or changes, and strategy would not be about competing with another but instead adapting to and risking whats in the environment. The wind and waves are pushing against you and the city around you, deliver this payload without being forced back into the sea or smushed under a building. Perhaps theres an air of magic about it playing with some weather predictions, that thematically have the player keeping track of cards, suits included.
The hard part with these solo games I feel is balancing bulk (how many things the player handles) vs fun (what actually is enjoyable in practice and not just imaginative theory)
It’s basically Rock, Paper, Scissors with different distributions. Very similar to the Spy in Stratego (1946), which loses to everything except the best piece.
Isn't every head-to-head comparison mechanism just RPS with extra steps? :) I'm kidding of course. That's an interesting way to think about it!
Also, it may be hard to believe but I've never played Stratego and have no idea how to play it! I should look into that one. I'm sure there are online implementations.
Indeed, I find this content very interesting, much like the other articles I've been reading lately. I've only just subscribed, though. Thank you for bringing such a remarkably talented man to my attention, and thank you, John, for creating such brilliant and enjoyable games.
[Bites fist.] OK, Naïve Question Alert: why is card counting a problem in a solo RPG with a random “opponent” (as opposed to a trick-taking game where we are just trying to rack up points)?
Some predictability is desired, else we’d have the automated opponent roll a die against our card, right? (That might not be bad, but it isn’t this.)
In an RPG, knowing you are going to win the next three tricks is to be distinguished from knowing what winning those tricks will get you. I know I have a run of victories coming, so I head back to the bomb I didn’t try to defuse earlier, but a wandering monster intervenes — I beat it, but then the hands refresh.
Even without randomising refresh or hand contents to undermine card counting, one could use custom hands of different prime number lengths to break up the rhythm. For example: player gets all the hearts plus 5, 6, 8, and 9 of diamonds (17 cards); auto-opponent gets all the spades plus 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 of clubs (19 cards); refresh should sync up every 323 tricks, right?
I have a horrible feeling that I am missing something blindingly obvious.
Yeah. I should have just said, “Don’t we need to know more about the game to know card counting is bad?” My natural headscratchiness/incontinence overcame me. ;)
The problem I see is that if you are playing cards at the same time there seems to be little decision that you can make. If your playing in a reactive mode such as miles borne than you open the the decision making options. Player A plays 10 of hearts, do you use a face card and risk an ace? Especially if you add in special cards.
Yeah, it's a simple game that has a very large luck component. Counting cards and knowing what your opponent has left and/or guessing what they might do next (meta) is required to make it more than that.
Great article. Got some more inspiration for if I ever want to expand the TOTAL FOOTBALL one-page rpg I made for the jam recently 😁
Thank you!
Here's a link if people want to check out your game: https://tijsvanlieshout.itch.io/total-football
I was going to shout you out, glad to see you mentioned your game!
My attempt for creating a solo mode for such a game that is not simply card counting was to try to split up actions into defense, midfield and attack, with a pushing your luck mechanic based on the number of actions and opponent attacks you face.
Great little mechanism! I could see a version of this being used as an entire TTRPG combat system. PCs have a small number of cards granted by their weapons/gear (maybe a 2, 4, and 9). Enemies come with a fixed set of cards. A small enemy (skeleton) might just have a 7 and a 3. Each round, each combatant can play a card against one target (the one they are attacking). In a 1-on-1, the higher card wins. In a 2-on-1, the higher card wins from the matched attacks, but the "unguarded" attacker gets a free hit. You have to use all your cards before you get any back, so that skeleton can make one hard hit and then a weak hit. Higher strength enemies get a stronger hand and can play more cards per round. Players learn what cards are held by which enemies, theming in learning how an enemy fights. I dunno...might be something there.
I could see this in an Eleventh Beast game where you are gaining information (cards) to improve your chances of defeating a beast.
Also, you should make a new game! You could have it done by the end of the week.
As a kid I tried to create an RPG that was basically this concept, using UNO cards. I don't remember all the details, but the different colors related to different stats, and you had a hand of cards that you played to overcome opponents or to perform risky actions. As you used up your cards your available options diminished until you had to rest to redraw a new hand of cards. If I remember right, the players knew what the target number was to achieve a success.
This is a really cool idea too. I like how the suits link to stats. That's a very nice touch
This is excellent. I really like this.
Another addition is that the players could choose which cards they had at the start of the scene/day/etc showing them to choose a couple of big cards and a couple of smaller ones or a more even spread. It would be nice to link then thematically to the character though. So like you said maybe the equipment could influence it somehow as well.
Defence could be tied into it with certain numbers (e.g. even numbers doing half damage when wearing armour x)
Great article, very interesting and full of ideas. I often have the problem of making things too complex, when simple mechanics can create the right tension and fun. The idea behind Goal is really interesting.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for the article. I wasn't aware of these books. Have any of the games that you found in this book compelled you to want to play them either solo or with someone else?
Your comments around analyzing these small games, and altering them, or inverting them reminded me of an exercise some friends and I used to try:
We would use a standard sticky note: So about 3 in x 3 in in size. Then we would challenge ourselves to design an entire game set of rules on the sticky note. We allowed ourselves to use coins as conponents. Obviously it didn't need to be a sticky note, but the size limitation and the fun colors helped challenge our brains to come up with fun concepts.
The games I've read through so far feel more like "example" or "instructive" games to me rather than ones I'd be anxious to get to the table. There's a good discussion included with each one that usually teaches me something or at least gets me thinking. But I wouldn't consider this a book of "great games" to play. :)
Thanks!
super interesting! now i'm thinking of some kind of football (in the sense of soccer) TTRPG, where this could be how you resolve matches, and in between you follow the players during training and their general life... maybe it's that all players are in control of one team, and during scenes each can pick one footballer to play for that scene (to avoid using 'player' for both categories), so it's like a shared pool of characters... and each is represented by a card, but then they can get upgrades through training, and there could even be things like new recruitments, or trades between teams... or each player controls one team each! many possibilities ^^
of simple card or dice mechanics used in games – while i have yet to play them, i know Defy the Gods has a Yahtzee-like system of spellcasting for the Sorcerer playbook, and one of the classes in You Will Die In This Place has something similar (and another class basically plays poker)... i really do like the Yahtzee-like things, where you try to get different combinations of dice to make different moves ^^ for spells it also feels quite appropriate, the mixing and matching!
i'd also be curious to see a game with a mechanic like in "Vändåttan" which i grew up playing... https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4nd%C3%A5tta
you try to get rid of all your cards in your hand, each turn you play one of either the same suit or value, if you have multiple of one value you can play them at once; and then the 8 changes suit, aces force all opponents to draw one card... if you can't play a card on your turn, you draw a card, which you can do up to three times during your turn until it passes to the next player.
i guess what would be most interesting from that would be the idea of a few cards having some kind of special power like the eight and the ace... kind-of like the ace does in this i suppose! although maybe even the full game could be interesting for something like a wizard duel ^^ or, since the goal is to use up all the resources, some kind of hyper-capitalist 'parody' game? maybe something like "planet-crashers", a competition to see who can use up all the resources of their planet first? [the characters could either be humans who have colonized other planets, or some other intergalactic lifeform... maybe flavoured either as super-rich or imperial...] (maybe too real though ^^")
and something from the article that i didn't quite understand:
"They could, of course, play face cards to handle your ace, but they only have a few of those." – i might be reading this wrong, but wasn't it that aces beat face cards?
anyhow, excellent article as always :D always look very much forward to reading these :)
Fixed!
Oh! I think I said that wrong in the article. You are right. Will fix!
Thanks for the comment! I want to look up the card game you mentioned!
That’s my struggle with a Xenobiology game I’m working on - every alien has a solo minigame, so I’m finding as many quick mechanics I can out there while twisting it for theme and complexity.
The soccer game but solo does feel like your either card counting, or even more reductively rolling 2 dice and seeing which result is higher.
I could imagine it repictured as pushing up against a larger force like weather, and strategically moving energy or moves around in a complex terrain. Various random draws can affect what collapses or changes, and strategy would not be about competing with another but instead adapting to and risking whats in the environment. The wind and waves are pushing against you and the city around you, deliver this payload without being forced back into the sea or smushed under a building. Perhaps theres an air of magic about it playing with some weather predictions, that thematically have the player keeping track of cards, suits included.
The hard part with these solo games I feel is balancing bulk (how many things the player handles) vs fun (what actually is enjoyable in practice and not just imaginative theory)
https://holisticdice.substack.com/p/building-aliens
I love a mini-game in a larger game (usually). Massive Darkness 2 is the one that introduced me to the concept in a really enjoyable way.
Thanks for the comment!
It’s basically Rock, Paper, Scissors with different distributions. Very similar to the Spy in Stratego (1946), which loses to everything except the best piece.
Isn't every head-to-head comparison mechanism just RPS with extra steps? :) I'm kidding of course. That's an interesting way to think about it!
Also, it may be hard to believe but I've never played Stratego and have no idea how to play it! I should look into that one. I'm sure there are online implementations.
Indeed, I find this content very interesting, much like the other articles I've been reading lately. I've only just subscribed, though. Thank you for bringing such a remarkably talented man to my attention, and thank you, John, for creating such brilliant and enjoyable games.
Thank you!
[Bites fist.] OK, Naïve Question Alert: why is card counting a problem in a solo RPG with a random “opponent” (as opposed to a trick-taking game where we are just trying to rack up points)?
Some predictability is desired, else we’d have the automated opponent roll a die against our card, right? (That might not be bad, but it isn’t this.)
In an RPG, knowing you are going to win the next three tricks is to be distinguished from knowing what winning those tricks will get you. I know I have a run of victories coming, so I head back to the bomb I didn’t try to defuse earlier, but a wandering monster intervenes — I beat it, but then the hands refresh.
Even without randomising refresh or hand contents to undermine card counting, one could use custom hands of different prime number lengths to break up the rhythm. For example: player gets all the hearts plus 5, 6, 8, and 9 of diamonds (17 cards); auto-opponent gets all the spades plus 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 of clubs (19 cards); refresh should sync up every 323 tricks, right?
I have a horrible feeling that I am missing something blindingly obvious.
It certainly depends on the specifics of the game. I agree it's not always a bad thing!
Yeah. I should have just said, “Don’t we need to know more about the game to know card counting is bad?” My natural headscratchiness/incontinence overcame me. ;)
The problem I see is that if you are playing cards at the same time there seems to be little decision that you can make. If your playing in a reactive mode such as miles borne than you open the the decision making options. Player A plays 10 of hearts, do you use a face card and risk an ace? Especially if you add in special cards.
Yeah, it's a simple game that has a very large luck component. Counting cards and knowing what your opponent has left and/or guessing what they might do next (meta) is required to make it more than that.
Thanks for the comment!