Exploring the different ways tabletop games can track ammo spent during combat whether it's an arrow or a bullet, using CY_BORG's ammo check roll as an example. Also: Complete the reader survey!
I can answer this one. It's because the "base" die in Mothership is a d10. Almost everything in the game is built around percentile dice or d10 tables (with the notable exception of the d20 Panic Die). To keep the focus on the d10, smaller tables are often based on a simulated d5, much the same way you would make a d3 table for a d6-based game (I tend to divide the roll by 2 and round up).
In my sci-fi game Starguild, running out of ammo is a “yes , but” option. If the skill attempt fails but isn’t a critical failure, the GM can offer an option like “you can choose to hit, but you are then out of ammo for that gun”. The player could accept that, or choose to miss but still have a functioning gun. Worked nicely with no additional rolls to remember.
I like how that builds that ammo check into the actions of the game rather than as an upkeep step at the end of combat. I wrote a little more about that here: https://omnes.exeunt.press/p/zero-upkeep
That’s an interesting article about upkeep - I definitely see that a lot in boardgames (just been playing terraforming mars, and getting those new MCr and materials is *important*!)
I’ve got a suspicion that Alien (1e) built ammo capacity into stress checks somehow; however I think in 2e they turned ammo into a resource like food and oxygen - which makes thematic sense, but does turn it into more of a separate upkeep check!
I'm the kind of game designer who likes to keep such mechanics streamlined and hopefully use actions that the player already performed/rolled. So I choose to bust Weapons (or run out of ammo) when the player rolls a FUMBLE. Then the player must use their Tinker, Gear, or Salvage skill (whatever equivalent that your TTRPG has) or SUPPLY consumable inventory item (see DURF repair Armor or restore worn Weapons) to repair or reload these busted Weapons. This tends to keep the action moving while still having the potential to require switching equipped Weapons.
Of course, YMMV - I like really swingy mechanics that create chaos, not everybody does.
That sounds like an interesting ammo system. Tying it to a fumble hooks it into the player actions vs. upkeep at the end. That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Great article. I like the brief explanation of other ammo tracking systems, but I think Cy_Borg has a tight system for tracking ammunition that is simple and makes sense.
Here is a question: if you were going for the horror shooter experience, a la F.E.A.R./Deadspace, would you consider ammo counting a narrative mechanic to increase tension?
I think it's the Alien RPG that does this well with a d6 pool for usage dice. I may be wrong, it may just be for things like the motion tracker but, I think it'd work well for ammo in the games you mentioned. Either way, the system I'm thinking works as follows:
Want to take a shot?
Roll the pool (a newly loaded gun may have 4d6) > any 1s? The pool gets one die smaller.
So long as you have dice in the pool you have ammo in your gun and you can take the shot.
Roll a 1 on the last die? You pull the trigger and... Click! Your empty and you need to reload.
I think it works well for the genre as the pool depletes quickly the more dice it has in it, then becomes a tense push your luck with the last die remaining as the odds of rolling a 1 becomes lower. Great for when you're down to your last magazine.
I actually forgot the Alien RPG exists and I have the rules. Looking through it, THAT is where I pulled my own little system from.
I know they did an update to the rules and I'm not sure if District Dice is using updated rules or if they're even different at all. But my copy uses Stress Dice mechanism as opposed to bullet tracking as they mentioned. Stress Dice = equal additional d6 into your dice pool based upon stress level. 6 = additional success and 1 = panic roll (or action specific result, like emptying your magazine). Individual bullets are not counted, only full mags.
Yeah, it's the evolved edition I was referencing. I don't know the older rules though, from what you say, it sounds like they've swapped to using a supply rating, rather than stress. Guns have an ammo supply rating, electronics with have an energy rating, etc. It still uses the "stress dice" as it's the 1s that are important but, it's now called a 'supply roll', working like I'd mentioned above. The only thing I think I got wrong is that you make the roll after you've taken the shot.
I have the evolved edition as well, but haven't had a chance to read through the rules. But glad to know there was a major overhaul on some things. Are stress dice gone altogether? If so, I'm unsure how I feel about that since Stress Dice were the major thematic change to the YZE to make it distinct.
i think i'd stray toward "all narrative", but it is a quite elegant solution in CY_BORG – and usage dice also seem very neat! that said, it does strike me as something that is best tailored to the specific game; you can really get a different "feel" to it, tone-wise for example, depending on how you go :) if it's on a cinematic/epic scale, either maybe never track at all, or have it be when it "makes sense" purely narratively on one end; whereas if you want it super 'tense', maybe have it be strict tracking in numbers, use a static amount from a pool each time... or would something like a random chance actually be more tense? anyhow, lots to think about; fun and fascinating as always :D thank you <3
Yes, I'd agree it depends (like everything) on the game experience you want to create and what kind of fun you want the players to have. I could see scenarios where the meticulous tracking of ammo down to the last two bullets would create some fun tension!
I LOVE usage dice for all the reasons you mentioned, because it's easy to key off a damage die and thus get multiple pieces of information from one roll, and because it's fun to adjust the threshold at which a usage die steps down in order to reflect added problems or pressures. I love that idea that added damage or added actions spent firing increases the step-down threshold.
I agree with all of that. I think usage dice are really interesting, with the only (small) downside that they assume the player has a full set of polyhedral dice. For regular TTRPG players, that's obviously not a problem. :) But for new players who might be interested in getting started, it's a small barrier vs. just d6 dice.
“Does CY_BORG’s ammo method solve the problem in a simple way or does it abstract away too much?”
For the chaos of firefights, it is fine, and if a player is lucky with her rolls, one can say her character found time to reload without the player allocating an action to it.
For out of combat use of firearms — e.g. an angry character picks someone else’s revolver up from a desk with the intention of executing defenceless prisoners — one would likely go another way.
Indeed. That's the advantage that TTRPGs will always have over a board game: the DM can adjust the rules on the fly. Those are two different cases and that sounds like the right solution for both.
Apparently there's no dramatic difference between having 85, 84, or even 44 bullets. It's just "a lot". On the contrary, there's a lot of dramatic difference between having 3, 2, 1, and no bullets. From dramatic standpoint, I think it's important to have a last tangible chip that players can place their biggest bet on.
I was quite surprised to discover that granularity doesn't has to be constant though. I like how depletion dice work for high amounts of resources, but I found it very satisfying to replace "resource runs out" result on the smallest die by "you have your last use of resource". So the smallest die that resource can downgrade to can technically be d1. This both keeps resources abstracted when they don't matter that much, and allows players to count their last bullets, rations, and torches.
The high probability of ammo being expended in CY_BORG creates this desperate narrative, with the characters just scraping by in a good percentage of encounters. They mathmatically can't carve through a location, guns blazing for very long, which means more agency and responsibility is put into the hands of the players.
I don't think I'd use that ammo system for other games, but it's perfect for CY_BORG, I think.
This is actually a topic that I've always had a lot of interest in. My personal solution that I picked up from somewhere (I thought it was mothership but maybe not?)
Have abstract ammo counters. Every time theres a fear check or a "no, and..." or "yes, but..." style result, roll some sort of discipline check to see if you mag dump or waste ammo. If so, remove an ammo counter. Makes failing checks more nerve wracking
Like the idea someone above suggested, I like that this builds the ammo check into the actions of the player. It's not a separate check/step at the end which eliminates some upkeep, which I've been thinking about recently: https://omnes.exeunt.press/p/zero-upkeep
The CY_BORG rules are quite elegant, and I might use them for a Stars Without Number campaign. I recently came across an interesting house rule for ammo management:
If you use a ranged weapon only once during a fight, you spend no ammo. If you use it multiple times, you are out of ammo after the fight.
These two approaches can be combined into a single, simple system:
Single shot (used once): No roll, no ammo lost
Multiple shots: Roll 1d8 (1–3 = ammo lost)
Auto fire: Roll 1d6 (1–3 = ammo lost)
One thing I’m still unsure about with systems like this is that you lose the dramatic moment of running out of ammo mid-fight. That tension could be reintroduced by forcing an ammo roll after, say, six or so combat rounds.
Why 1d5 and not 1d6?
I can answer this one. It's because the "base" die in Mothership is a d10. Almost everything in the game is built around percentile dice or d10 tables (with the notable exception of the d20 Panic Die). To keep the focus on the d10, smaller tables are often based on a simulated d5, much the same way you would make a d3 table for a d6-based game (I tend to divide the roll by 2 and round up).
That makes sense. I sort of alluded to that in a footnote, but I forgot that most of the game is d10 stuff.
In my sci-fi game Starguild, running out of ammo is a “yes , but” option. If the skill attempt fails but isn’t a critical failure, the GM can offer an option like “you can choose to hit, but you are then out of ammo for that gun”. The player could accept that, or choose to miss but still have a functioning gun. Worked nicely with no additional rolls to remember.
I like how that builds that ammo check into the actions of the game rather than as an upkeep step at the end of combat. I wrote a little more about that here: https://omnes.exeunt.press/p/zero-upkeep
That’s an interesting article about upkeep - I definitely see that a lot in boardgames (just been playing terraforming mars, and getting those new MCr and materials is *important*!)
I’ve got a suspicion that Alien (1e) built ammo capacity into stress checks somehow; however I think in 2e they turned ammo into a resource like food and oxygen - which makes thematic sense, but does turn it into more of a separate upkeep check!
Upkeep phases definitely are not inherently bad. It just struck me as something I consider so normal and expected, that perhaps they aren’t!
Fun to think about.
Thanks!
Nice system and analysis of other Ammo mechanics.
I'm the kind of game designer who likes to keep such mechanics streamlined and hopefully use actions that the player already performed/rolled. So I choose to bust Weapons (or run out of ammo) when the player rolls a FUMBLE. Then the player must use their Tinker, Gear, or Salvage skill (whatever equivalent that your TTRPG has) or SUPPLY consumable inventory item (see DURF repair Armor or restore worn Weapons) to repair or reload these busted Weapons. This tends to keep the action moving while still having the potential to require switching equipped Weapons.
Of course, YMMV - I like really swingy mechanics that create chaos, not everybody does.
I like this as it also makes otherwise throwaway skills relevant. I mean, how often do people actually get to use craft skills in a ttrpg?
That sounds like an interesting ammo system. Tying it to a fumble hooks it into the player actions vs. upkeep at the end. That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Thanks for your comment!
Great article. I like the brief explanation of other ammo tracking systems, but I think Cy_Borg has a tight system for tracking ammunition that is simple and makes sense.
Thank you! Yeah, I like it. Easy but feels at least a little thematic.
You're welcome.
Here is a question: if you were going for the horror shooter experience, a la F.E.A.R./Deadspace, would you consider ammo counting a narrative mechanic to increase tension?
I've actually never played either of those! But I'm sort of familiar with them. My gut says ammo counting might make sense.
I think it's the Alien RPG that does this well with a d6 pool for usage dice. I may be wrong, it may just be for things like the motion tracker but, I think it'd work well for ammo in the games you mentioned. Either way, the system I'm thinking works as follows:
Want to take a shot?
Roll the pool (a newly loaded gun may have 4d6) > any 1s? The pool gets one die smaller.
So long as you have dice in the pool you have ammo in your gun and you can take the shot.
Roll a 1 on the last die? You pull the trigger and... Click! Your empty and you need to reload.
I think it works well for the genre as the pool depletes quickly the more dice it has in it, then becomes a tense push your luck with the last die remaining as the odds of rolling a 1 becomes lower. Great for when you're down to your last magazine.
I (in general) love dice pools, so that sounds fun.
I think (someone can correct me) that the Alien RPG is built on the same YZE that Twilight: 2000 is. So the might have similar mechanisms.
Thanks for sharing this!
I actually forgot the Alien RPG exists and I have the rules. Looking through it, THAT is where I pulled my own little system from.
I know they did an update to the rules and I'm not sure if District Dice is using updated rules or if they're even different at all. But my copy uses Stress Dice mechanism as opposed to bullet tracking as they mentioned. Stress Dice = equal additional d6 into your dice pool based upon stress level. 6 = additional success and 1 = panic roll (or action specific result, like emptying your magazine). Individual bullets are not counted, only full mags.
Yeah, it's the evolved edition I was referencing. I don't know the older rules though, from what you say, it sounds like they've swapped to using a supply rating, rather than stress. Guns have an ammo supply rating, electronics with have an energy rating, etc. It still uses the "stress dice" as it's the 1s that are important but, it's now called a 'supply roll', working like I'd mentioned above. The only thing I think I got wrong is that you make the roll after you've taken the shot.
I have the evolved edition as well, but haven't had a chance to read through the rules. But glad to know there was a major overhaul on some things. Are stress dice gone altogether? If so, I'm unsure how I feel about that since Stress Dice were the major thematic change to the YZE to make it distinct.
Oh no, stress dice are still very much integral to the core gameplay
i think i'd stray toward "all narrative", but it is a quite elegant solution in CY_BORG – and usage dice also seem very neat! that said, it does strike me as something that is best tailored to the specific game; you can really get a different "feel" to it, tone-wise for example, depending on how you go :) if it's on a cinematic/epic scale, either maybe never track at all, or have it be when it "makes sense" purely narratively on one end; whereas if you want it super 'tense', maybe have it be strict tracking in numbers, use a static amount from a pool each time... or would something like a random chance actually be more tense? anyhow, lots to think about; fun and fascinating as always :D thank you <3
Thank you so much!
Yes, I'd agree it depends (like everything) on the game experience you want to create and what kind of fun you want the players to have. I could see scenarios where the meticulous tracking of ammo down to the last two bullets would create some fun tension!
I LOVE usage dice for all the reasons you mentioned, because it's easy to key off a damage die and thus get multiple pieces of information from one roll, and because it's fun to adjust the threshold at which a usage die steps down in order to reflect added problems or pressures. I love that idea that added damage or added actions spent firing increases the step-down threshold.
I agree with all of that. I think usage dice are really interesting, with the only (small) downside that they assume the player has a full set of polyhedral dice. For regular TTRPG players, that's obviously not a problem. :) But for new players who might be interested in getting started, it's a small barrier vs. just d6 dice.
Thank you for your comment!
“Does CY_BORG’s ammo method solve the problem in a simple way or does it abstract away too much?”
For the chaos of firefights, it is fine, and if a player is lucky with her rolls, one can say her character found time to reload without the player allocating an action to it.
For out of combat use of firearms — e.g. an angry character picks someone else’s revolver up from a desk with the intention of executing defenceless prisoners — one would likely go another way.
Indeed. That's the advantage that TTRPGs will always have over a board game: the DM can adjust the rules on the fly. Those are two different cases and that sounds like the right solution for both.
Thanks for your comment!
Apparently there's no dramatic difference between having 85, 84, or even 44 bullets. It's just "a lot". On the contrary, there's a lot of dramatic difference between having 3, 2, 1, and no bullets. From dramatic standpoint, I think it's important to have a last tangible chip that players can place their biggest bet on.
I was quite surprised to discover that granularity doesn't has to be constant though. I like how depletion dice work for high amounts of resources, but I found it very satisfying to replace "resource runs out" result on the smallest die by "you have your last use of resource". So the smallest die that resource can downgrade to can technically be d1. This both keeps resources abstracted when they don't matter that much, and allows players to count their last bullets, rations, and torches.
The high probability of ammo being expended in CY_BORG creates this desperate narrative, with the characters just scraping by in a good percentage of encounters. They mathmatically can't carve through a location, guns blazing for very long, which means more agency and responsibility is put into the hands of the players.
I don't think I'd use that ammo system for other games, but it's perfect for CY_BORG, I think.
This is actually a topic that I've always had a lot of interest in. My personal solution that I picked up from somewhere (I thought it was mothership but maybe not?)
Have abstract ammo counters. Every time theres a fear check or a "no, and..." or "yes, but..." style result, roll some sort of discipline check to see if you mag dump or waste ammo. If so, remove an ammo counter. Makes failing checks more nerve wracking
Like the idea someone above suggested, I like that this builds the ammo check into the actions of the player. It's not a separate check/step at the end which eliminates some upkeep, which I've been thinking about recently: https://omnes.exeunt.press/p/zero-upkeep
The CY_BORG rules are quite elegant, and I might use them for a Stars Without Number campaign. I recently came across an interesting house rule for ammo management:
If you use a ranged weapon only once during a fight, you spend no ammo. If you use it multiple times, you are out of ammo after the fight.
These two approaches can be combined into a single, simple system:
Single shot (used once): No roll, no ammo lost
Multiple shots: Roll 1d8 (1–3 = ammo lost)
Auto fire: Roll 1d6 (1–3 = ammo lost)
One thing I’m still unsure about with systems like this is that you lose the dramatic moment of running out of ammo mid-fight. That tension could be reintroduced by forcing an ammo roll after, say, six or so combat rounds.