This is great. As I think more and more about adventure design, this feels like a very cool way to make even the same adventure structure feel continually new
I've called them 3d6 Tables, and while I think Combinatorial Tables (or maybe just Combination Tables) is a very clear name, I like the mystery and evocativeness of Chimera Tables or Cartesian Product Tables. Whatever they should be called, I feel like we're at a place that they should have some kind of mutually agreed upon name. Or maybe that's just my pattern-seeking brain crying out for a label. :)
i love tables where you can combine multiple things in many different ways :) like you point out, the possible combinations truly explode!
one thing it kind-of reminds me of, though quite distinct, is how in many "Belonging Outside Belonging"-style games (like Wanderhome, Extra Ordinary, and indeed for at least one playbook in one of the original games, Dream Apart) there are picklists where there is only one list, but you pick more than one option from it, in a way that each kind of option radically re-contextualizes the pick. It's best illustrated by an example, so let's take one from the Prodigy's sheet in Extra Ordinary:
"CHOOSE 2 TALENTS YOU’RE VALUED FOR, 1 YOU’RE VALUED FOR NOT HAVING, AND 1 YOU SECRETLY VALUE ABOUT YOURSELF"
and then there's a list of 8 options. What i love about that kind of list, is how compact yet incredibly flavourful it is – you're not just choosing 4 out of 8 things (which itself can be made in 70 different ways), but it actually matters (a lot!) which you choose for which kind. So really, you could see it as choosing first 2 out of 8, then 1 of 6, and then 1 of 5, ie 28*6*5=840 different ways! And all with one single list of 8 options :) (or you could see it as first choosing the subset of 4, then choosing 2 out of 4, then one out the remaining two, ie 70*6*2 making for of course the same final amount)
(these kinds of tables really scale even quicker, since the factorial (involved in the "choose" operator aka binomial coefficient) grows faster than even an exponential ^^) [this makes me wonder if there's an easy way to get something akin to n^n easily with random tables, since that then would grow even faster...]
"(these kinds of tables really scale even quicker, since the factorial (involved in the "choose" operator aka binomial coefficient) grows faster than even an exponential ^^) [this makes me wonder if there's an easy way to get something akin to n^n easily with random tables, since that then would grow even faster...]"
happy to provide – and a very fitting turn of phrase indeed, since Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll of "Alice in Wonderland" fame) was a mathematician and incorporated many mathematical concepts into his works :)!
I was thinking of joining the one page jam this year and this may have been the little bump I needed to dive in.
I love a good d66 table. A 3 stack stable is great when it’s it has 10 or less entries per column; any time I see more than 10 entries per column, it seems like you are trying to pack too much into that format.
I also really enjoy the type that has you roll vertically on a table then another roll for the horizontal component. This feels like a great way to randomized diverse subsets of the same idea, like rolling for a religious character and then getting cleric vs zealot vs war priest.
You definitely should submit something for the jam. Seriously, check out the Make Your Own One-Page RPG guide if you get stuck. You can read it for free in the archives. Step by step will get you to a finished game! Good luck!
Yes! Random tables! I love generating things on random tables even if I'm not putting the results into play at that moment. Also, I was so bummed that I forgot to bring my Quest Giver card with random tables on it for quest generation to the ALA conference because I was going to use them as a business card of sorts. Must remember next time!
I'm torn because I like your name for these tables, and I think "random tables" is a good umbrella term for all sorts of tables, but now we need names for other table types!
I love random tables in all their forms, these days if I play a game that doesn't have any random tables I am slightly disappointed. I'm probably spoiled from having started my solo RPG journey with Ironsworn!
In addition to A+B+C tables, you could also have A>B>C tables. Where instead of combining the results, a result on table A leads to another set of tables that themselves leads to further tables. I guess those could be called Nested tables? Or Matryoshka tables maybe?
Eleventh Beast looks fun! I've added it to my Itch wishlist to play in the future. I spend a lot of time in London and I haven't seen any Blood Goats or Moon Fiends yet... maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd 😆
“Planets: … size (A), atmosphere (B), terrain (C), weather (D), and special feature (E) … 7,776 different planets.”
E is imponderable, but A through D are surely not independent. Restricting the values in each category to produce only “sensible” planets would likely produce 7.5 thousand very dull planets, no?
I am not saying this to be a killjoy — requiring rigorous flow charts for planet creation — but to suggest some relaxation of the requirement that all outcomes be reasonable. Many should be usable as they come, but if some have to be binned, manually adjusted, or fancifully elaborated, that is surely OK.
Of course, it depends what the table is for: a critical hit table that called for frequent referee fiat might cause players to grumble, although the rulings-not-rules and GM-is-god crowds might not mind. ;)
A+B+C tables are Chimera tables
I like the sound of this.
This is great. As I think more and more about adventure design, this feels like a very cool way to make even the same adventure structure feel continually new
Thanks!
I know Adam Vass and Will Jobst have also talked in the Braintrust podcast of using the power of cominatorial tables as a writer:
Make a number of lists in your spreadsheet, let Excel generate all combinations, and pick the ones that are best for your game.
A +B +C = A tidy chart.
Call it combined. This and a "game box" ideas in the same day made my week.
Now to collect and sort out what I need....
Thanks !
I've called them 3d6 Tables, and while I think Combinatorial Tables (or maybe just Combination Tables) is a very clear name, I like the mystery and evocativeness of Chimera Tables or Cartesian Product Tables. Whatever they should be called, I feel like we're at a place that they should have some kind of mutually agreed upon name. Or maybe that's just my pattern-seeking brain crying out for a label. :)
3d6 table (or 4d6, 5d6, Xd6?) makes the most sense. But it lacks the flavor and STYLE of the others! :) :)
Right? So what are we going to call them? Let's start the movement right now!
i love tables where you can combine multiple things in many different ways :) like you point out, the possible combinations truly explode!
one thing it kind-of reminds me of, though quite distinct, is how in many "Belonging Outside Belonging"-style games (like Wanderhome, Extra Ordinary, and indeed for at least one playbook in one of the original games, Dream Apart) there are picklists where there is only one list, but you pick more than one option from it, in a way that each kind of option radically re-contextualizes the pick. It's best illustrated by an example, so let's take one from the Prodigy's sheet in Extra Ordinary:
"CHOOSE 2 TALENTS YOU’RE VALUED FOR, 1 YOU’RE VALUED FOR NOT HAVING, AND 1 YOU SECRETLY VALUE ABOUT YOURSELF"
and then there's a list of 8 options. What i love about that kind of list, is how compact yet incredibly flavourful it is – you're not just choosing 4 out of 8 things (which itself can be made in 70 different ways), but it actually matters (a lot!) which you choose for which kind. So really, you could see it as choosing first 2 out of 8, then 1 of 6, and then 1 of 5, ie 28*6*5=840 different ways! And all with one single list of 8 options :) (or you could see it as first choosing the subset of 4, then choosing 2 out of 4, then one out the remaining two, ie 70*6*2 making for of course the same final amount)
(these kinds of tables really scale even quicker, since the factorial (involved in the "choose" operator aka binomial coefficient) grows faster than even an exponential ^^) [this makes me wonder if there's an easy way to get something akin to n^n easily with random tables, since that then would grow even faster...]
"(these kinds of tables really scale even quicker, since the factorial (involved in the "choose" operator aka binomial coefficient) grows faster than even an exponential ^^) [this makes me wonder if there's an easy way to get something akin to n^n easily with random tables, since that then would grow even faster...]"
Now this is going to send me down a rabbit hole!
happy to provide – and a very fitting turn of phrase indeed, since Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll of "Alice in Wonderland" fame) was a mathematician and incorporated many mathematical concepts into his works :)!
I was thinking of joining the one page jam this year and this may have been the little bump I needed to dive in.
I love a good d66 table. A 3 stack stable is great when it’s it has 10 or less entries per column; any time I see more than 10 entries per column, it seems like you are trying to pack too much into that format.
I also really enjoy the type that has you roll vertically on a table then another roll for the horizontal component. This feels like a great way to randomized diverse subsets of the same idea, like rolling for a religious character and then getting cleric vs zealot vs war priest.
You definitely should submit something for the jam. Seriously, check out the Make Your Own One-Page RPG guide if you get stuck. You can read it for free in the archives. Step by step will get you to a finished game! Good luck!
Yes! Random tables! I love generating things on random tables even if I'm not putting the results into play at that moment. Also, I was so bummed that I forgot to bring my Quest Giver card with random tables on it for quest generation to the ALA conference because I was going to use them as a business card of sorts. Must remember next time!
I'm torn because I like your name for these tables, and I think "random tables" is a good umbrella term for all sorts of tables, but now we need names for other table types!
I love random tables in all their forms, these days if I play a game that doesn't have any random tables I am slightly disappointed. I'm probably spoiled from having started my solo RPG journey with Ironsworn!
In addition to A+B+C tables, you could also have A>B>C tables. Where instead of combining the results, a result on table A leads to another set of tables that themselves leads to further tables. I guess those could be called Nested tables? Or Matryoshka tables maybe?
Eleventh Beast looks fun! I've added it to my Itch wishlist to play in the future. I spend a lot of time in London and I haven't seen any Blood Goats or Moon Fiends yet... maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd 😆
“Planets: … size (A), atmosphere (B), terrain (C), weather (D), and special feature (E) … 7,776 different planets.”
E is imponderable, but A through D are surely not independent. Restricting the values in each category to produce only “sensible” planets would likely produce 7.5 thousand very dull planets, no?
I am not saying this to be a killjoy — requiring rigorous flow charts for planet creation — but to suggest some relaxation of the requirement that all outcomes be reasonable. Many should be usable as they come, but if some have to be binned, manually adjusted, or fancifully elaborated, that is surely OK.
Of course, it depends what the table is for: a critical hit table that called for frequent referee fiat might cause players to grumble, although the rulings-not-rules and GM-is-god crowds might not mind. ;)
I agree. Flexibility makes sense and will give better results.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)